cnj
Sitting For The Papadakis's
Posts: 1,708
|
Post by cnj on Aug 29, 2018 4:10:51 GMT -5
The same forward-thinking town that produced girls who said Jessi didn't belong and called her Mobobwee? do ANY of the other BSC members reject Jessi because of her race or call her any racial names. NONE of the other BSC members or anyone in their families call Jessi a "Mobobwee" or any racial slur! Initially, in the EARLY books, the older BSC were reluctant to have Jessi or Mallory as full-fledged BSC members because Jessi and Mallory were very young and because they'd had one negative experience with other 'newcomers' being irresponsible and flighty. It was their age, not anyone's race that was an issue with the BSC. But once both Jessi and Mallory proved themselves trustworthy and responsible, the rest of the BSC welcomed them with open arms. As to any racism Jessi encountered in Stoneybrook...that was with a FEW people OUTSIDE the BSC. The book Keep Out, Claudia is actually illustrative of how RARE racism truly was in this large northeastern town...the BSC were very shocked at the Lowells' racist, backwards, right-wing attitudes and rightfully refuse to facilitate their racism...they do NOT complacently accept the Lowells' attitude as the 'norm' at all. The same forward-thinking town that produced girls who said Jessi didn’t belong and called her Mobobwee? Don't forget also, Booboobrewer...Stoneybrook is also comprised of grandchildren and children of immigrants, which lots of fanfictions neglect to mention. Not to mention that MOST of the BSC have dark brown eyes...only Stacey, Dawn and Mal have blue eyes. |
|
|
|
Post by greer on Jul 17, 2019 9:27:39 GMT -5
Actually, I don’t think the Lowell incident showed that racism was rare. I am just not sure that we read the same books at all. A major part of the books for Jessi was that it was hard for her when she moved, because she came from a diverse place and moved to a very white area. Her family was not welcomed the way other new families were. It is described in detail. Being shocked by the Lowells to me shows privilege and naïveté, not that Stoneybrook was super progressive and diverse. I don’t get the children and grandchildren of immigrants thing. It doesn’t seem to the be case for most Stoneybrookites.
As far as cliches in your fanfiction, I don’t know; I read them in high school and I’m in my 30s now, and who knows when I made that comment! But probably just the things and themes that interested you that popped up a lot.
|
|
cnj
Sitting For The Papadakis's
Posts: 1,708
|
Post by cnj on Jul 17, 2019 14:40:06 GMT -5
Actually, I don't think the Lowell incident showed that racism was rare. I still think it did...otherwise, the rest of the BSC would have brushed it off. True, that they would have not bent over backwards condoning the Lowells' hatred, but if racism was an everyday thing for everyone in Stoneybrook, it would have been treated more like bad weather. I am just not sure that we read the same books at all. Yeah, I wonder...LOL. Some of the fanfic clichés treat Stoneybrook like the racist, backwoods of the Mississippi countryside in the 1950s. A major part of the books for Jessi was that it was hard for her when she moved, because she came from a diverse place and moved to a very white area. A minor part of Jessi's storyline, yes...but not a major part. The later books did not have Jessi be this chronic racism victim, which relieved me. Her family was not welcomed the way other new families were. It is described in detail. True, INITIALLY...some people in Stoneybrook were hesistant to welcome her family, but the BSC and their families welcomed her. So did MOST of Stoneybrook. MOST Stoneybrookers were NOT racist. Definitely NONE of the BSC or any of their families have racist attitudes. Once the Ramseys settled in and in later books, they were treated with much more courtesy and respect. And Jessi was able to fit in SMS with little trouble. One of the later books does mention that Jessi is NOT the only black person in her class and definitely not the school. Jessi herself seems to get on well with classmates of SEVERAL different ethnicities, including a Puerto Rican girl. So, I still heartily disagree with the idea of Stoneybrook being an apartheid place like the 1950s Mississippi or Georgia backwoods small towns. Stoneybrook isn't the backwoods and Stoneybrookers themselves are not redneck hillbillies like some fanfic clichés depict. Being shocked by the Lowells to me shows privilege and naïveté, not that Stoneybrook was super progressive and diverse. In some ways, the BSC's shock at the Lowells' attitudes does show a bit of naïveté because unlike some areas of the States, the BSC were really not used to dealing with racists. It was perhaps an early lesson for all of them that unfortunately, there is still racism and bigotry in the world. That could be a springboard for them to confront and end racism especially once they reached adulthood. I don't get the children and grandchildren of immigrants thing. It doesn't seem to the be case for most Stoneybrookites. It does for me. Just look at so many of the names. Papadikas. Hsu. Kishi. Countless others. And no, the families with those names are not treated as "curiosities" or "alien" freaks either. But also note that I said children and GRANDchildren, so, yes, most Stoneybrookers are States-born and English-speaking. As far as cliches in your fanfiction, I don't know; I read them in high school and I'm in my 30s now, and who knows when I made that comment! But probably just the things and themes that interested you that popped up a lot. True to a degree. But part of the reason I love the BSC series is that the series...along with the Girl Talk series resonated well with me. The books captured lots of themes that I was interested in like divorce, stepfamilies, female friendships, psychology, feminism and good books and movies. The girls themselves seemed deep, intelligent, diverse and resourceful. And I loved the deep bond they have with one another, the sort I see lasting a lifetime. I expand it more in my fanfictions especially because too many other fanfictions pitted them against each other. Until recently and even today, too many storylines set up females as rivals and not friends. And too many other books until recently were too quick to hook up even pre-teenage girls with boyfriends and have them dating by twelve. I'm so glad the BSC books didn't fall into that trap...sure, SOME of the girls dated in eighth grade, but most of them did not. |
|
|
|
Post by greer on Jul 17, 2019 17:25:45 GMT -5
Racism doesn’t mean a backwoods southern town. If you look at the history of suburbs as a whole, your argument doesn’t make sense. White flight? Redlining? In the book Jessi’s Horrible Prank, for instance, the teachers want Jessi and her friend you mention to be in the show so they can say hey, we DO have people who aren’t white at this school. A diverse town in the Northeast would not have one black kid in the entire sixth grade. If it were the progressive paradise you’re making it out to be, Jessi’s family’s issues with the neighbors wouldn’t be a major point they brought up frequently when talking about her experience in Stoneybrook.
|
|
cnj
Sitting For The Papadakis's
Posts: 1,708
|
Post by cnj on Jul 19, 2019 20:47:45 GMT -5
Racism doesn't mean a backwoods southern town. Not always, that much is true. If you look at the history of suburbs as a whole, your argument doesn't make sense. I say it makes perfect sense because not all suburbs are racist. You are confusing 'as a whole' with 'all,' which doesn't make sense. Anyway, although Stoneybrook is mostly suburban, you keep forgetting that it is less than an hour from NYC...not in the middle of nowhere. Yes, I know all about this. But Stoneybrook is not one of those areas where the whites moved away in reaction to blacks moving to their block. In fact, while Stacey was in NYC for a while, Jessi's family moved into the McGill's old house...and no one tried to deny them a mortgage or tried to point them to the rural outskirts or anything like that. And none of the white families in the Ramseys' new neighborhood packed up and moved out. Also, you're forgetting that the BSC is set in the 1990s, not the 1950s. Yes, there was racism in the 1990s, but unlike what some of the clichéd fanfics imply, there are no incidences in any of the books of the Ramseys or the Kishis being kept out of certain stores, being denied certain services or being ushered to any distant table. So, no, there was no "white flight" in Stoneybrook and the Ramseys never mentioned being "redlined" in ANY of the books. In the book *Jessi's Horrible Prank,* for instance, the teachers want Jessi and her friend you mention to be in the show so they can say hey, we DO have people who aren't white at this school. I don't recall any teacher flagrantly telling Jessi this. A diverse town in the Northeast would not have one black kid in the entire sixth grade. Re-read my above comment...I mentioned that the later BSC books mention other black kids in Jessi's grade and at SMS, so, no, Jessi is NOT the only black student at SMS. True, there are still not many black students yet at SMS, but Jessi is NOT, NOT the lone black student among an all-WASP student body. If it were the progressive paradise you're making it out to be, Jessi's family's issues with the neighbors wouldn't be a major point they brought up frequently when talking about her experience in Stoneybrook. True that Stoneybrook is not perfect and isn't a completely egalitarian perfect paradise, but it does better than many other areas, especially in terms of race, gender and disability equality. And it's true that Jessi felt rather daunted initially at moving to a predominantly white Jewish neighborhood...I think her family was mentioned to be non-practicing Methodists...and some of the welcome committee needed improving its attitude toward gentiles and blacks, but things did improve for the Ramseys as the books went on, so by midway through the series, any issues any of the neighbors had with the Ramseys was NOT any "major" issue. And not "all" the neighbors rejected the Ramseys, even at first. The BSC members themselves definitely had NO issues with racism and none of the BSC came from racist or bigoted families. With the temporary exception of the Lowells, the BSC members were able to be absolutely confident that Jessi would not encounter racism from any of their clients' families either. And by the later books, no, race issues were NOT "frequently" brought up. Most of Jessi's books focused on her passion for dancing and her love of horses and kids in addition to her deep friendship with the rest of the BSC, especially her bond with Mallory. A chunk of the Jessi books midway through the BSC series also focused on Jessi getting used to having her Aunt Cecilia living with them, so her Aunt Cecilia was discussed far more than the Ramseys' race. I just wanted to call into question the fanfics that incorrectly portray Stoneybrook as this redneck town, when in canon, it's not accurate. |
|
|
|
Post by LadyDruscilla on Aug 28, 2019 8:08:03 GMT -5
Making Karen a child criminal..I mean, yes she occasionally has her annoying moments, but she was NOT evil..there are parents who WISH they could say the worse things about their children is that they talk about scary stuff too much/mischievous and have quite the set of lungs..she is like a mini-Kristy so I see her being like Kristy when she grows up.
|
|
cnj
Sitting For The Papadakis's
Posts: 1,708
|
Post by cnj on Aug 28, 2019 12:29:13 GMT -5
She is like a mini-Kristy so I see her being like Kristy when she grows up. I see lots of similarities between Kristy and Karen also. I've been reading lots of the old BSC fanfiction on FF.net and found a few more clichés. One common fanfic cliché is Kristy being too straightlaced and loudly criticizing anyone who drinks, has sex or makes any mistakes. A common extreme variant of this cliché is having Kristy be conservative-minded and loudly disapproving of sex or anything outside the straight and narrow. On the straightlaced!Kristy cliché too many fanfics have Stacey and often Claudia going completely wild, getting drunk, having careless casual sex or into trouble every week and being irresponsible, then disparaging Kristy as being "immature" or "babyish." Sometimes, Dawn is depicted as being in on this and often she's portrayed as an out-of-control, often drug-addicted mess and her parents not knowing what to do with her. Often in this popular cliché, Mary Anne is portrayed as being too easily swayed and either being duped into going along with the wild, reckless behavior or of being all "shocked" and clinging to Kristy. While it's true that Kristy has strong opinions about lots of things, I doubt she is narrow-minded or that rigid in her thinking...she's actually quite open-minded. Another popular cliché is the BSC disbanding, usually at the beginning of high school and everyone except Kristy just moving on and Kristy becoming depressed and miserable about the "end" of the BSC and wanting to "cling to the past" and "not wanting to grow up." Adding that that banal fanfiction plot is having Kristy being all anxious, "scared," and nervous about high school and Stacey and often Claudia being eager to ditch the past and rush full speed ahead into high school and into "maturity." I think ALL of them would be a bit sad, not just Kristy. I know Kristy founded the BSC and is the club president, but all the main original four girls and Mal and Jessi have a deep emotional attachment to the club, not just Kristy. In canon book #100 - Kristy's Worst Idea, when the club temporarily disbands, it's Mary Anne, Jessi and Mallory who are crying the most...not Kristy. |
|
oldhickory
Sitting For The Arnolds
Heather Loves Boys and Gym
Posts: 3,057
|
Post by oldhickory on Oct 1, 2019 9:13:44 GMT -5
I just wanted to call into question the fanfics that incorrectly portray Stoneybrook as this redneck town, when in canon, it's not accurate. It seems like there is some confusion here. This thread is to discuss cliches present in fanfiction, not to attack or defend them. Some fanfic authors interpret Stonybrook as a redneck town, or portray the girls having sex, or being extreme versions of themselves, or whatever. So what. Fanfiction is by definition not canon. I don't think it's a problem when writers apply their own interpretations and I don't think there's any such thing as incorrect when it comes to fanfic. It's fine to question things, but there's no need for fanfiction to adhere to canon. It seems like this thread has heading that direction lately (debating the correctness of cliches instead of flagging overused cliches), so I wanted to mention this. |
|
cnj
Sitting For The Papadakis's
Posts: 1,708
|
Post by cnj on Nov 5, 2019 17:32:48 GMT -5
I just wanted to call into question the fanfics that incorrectly portray Stoneybrook as this redneck town, when in canon, it's not accurate. It seems like there is some confusion here. This thread is to discuss cliches present in fanfiction, not to attack or defend them. Some fanfic authors interpret Stonybrook as a redneck town, or portray the girls having sex, or being extreme versions of themselves, or whatever. So what. Fanfiction is by definition not canon. I don't think it's a problem when writers apply their own interpretations and I don't think there's any such thing as incorrect when it comes to fanfic. It's fine to question things, but there's no need for fanfiction to adhere to canon. It seems like this thread has heading that direction lately (debating the correctness of cliches instead of flagging overused cliches), so I wanted to mention this. True to a degree...but I think when something is A/U, it should be mentioned. I've written a few A/C fics myself, but I flag it as such, so readers unfamiliar with the series don't get the wrong impression of the canon series. And I still think the idea of Stoneybrook being this bigoted, redneck, hick town is off-canon, A/U and a common fanfic cliché. It kind of makes me laugh, really; I find it amusing. Some of these clichéd fanfics are a fun, amusing read, especially the soap opera ones. |
|
|
|
Post by CharlotteTJohanssen on May 21, 2020 22:35:30 GMT -5
I had sent a link to this thread to a friend and rereading this now makes me want to read some of those cliche filled stories.
|
|
|
|
Post by LadyDruscilla on May 30, 2020 6:41:28 GMT -5
7) Karen Brewer is pursued as a REAL SPOILED BRAT. While she is a bit spoiled in the LS/BSC series, I never considered her a brat. I mostly thought of her as a sweet, funny little girl who is a bit on the manipulative side. Aren't all 7 year olds? I read a fan fiction from fanfiction.net and it was about 15 year old Karen acting like a baby so she gets treated like a baby. It was funny and I actually liked it for entertainment purposes. But in a lot of fan fictions Karen is, like, the most spoiled, brattiest baby ever. This here makes me wonder if she is somehow being mixed up with another child..I mean, when has she ever thrown herself on the floor, screaming and kicking about how she wants something NOW or hit/bite the person who said no to her? I WANT TO KNOW. |
|
|
|
Post by booklover85 on May 30, 2020 9:42:14 GMT -5
Stories that feature Logan Bruno and Richard Spier as abusive makes me hurl sometimes. Richard may be strict and Logan can be an ass at times, but they would never harm Mary Anne.
|
|
janey
New To Stoneybrook
Posts: 3
|
Post by janey on May 30, 2020 13:36:26 GMT -5
The Karen thing is interesting. I always felt Karen was a brat, but looking back on it as an adult, I realized that was a combination of two things:
*She rarely ever gets in trouble, even when she should. This happens less than I remembered it happening, but definitely does occur.
*She's omnipresent. There are a few other characters who irritate me,but they show up every fifth book, or less often. Not only is Karen in a lot more books, but she got her own spin off. Without the LS series I doubt she would have been half as annoying.
The only time I remember Karen being really bratty was the LS book about the roller skates, when she acted as if the world should revolve around her because she broke a bone. The rest of the time she was more prone to sulking, pouting, whining and the occasional verbal manipulation.
|
|
|
|
Post by LadyDruscilla on May 31, 2020 7:05:09 GMT -5
Oh yes she did get punished..even if it was just being sent to her room to think about what she did..and the times she didn't well those times severe scolding was enough for her to be like "uh-oh", and on occasion even before then ..there were times she was punished/chided for things that SHOULDN'T have been an issue..(only wanting time with her friends, not wanting to share a cupcake THAT WAS FOR HER CLASS PARTY)..if grownups didn't step in when she got too bossy or during an argument (unless things were on the verge of escalation), the answer to that is simple..they feel she is old enough to learn to patch things up so they're not always obligated to do so (kind of like the Pike parents) It's ANDREW who is almost never punished, with the exception of the time he left the door open and blamed it on Karen. I know Lisa and Watson have different view points on certain aspects (Lisa not allowing Saturday morning cartoons, Watson does, Lisa forbids sweets/junk food, Watson allows it on occasion), but that's natural..and not every misdeed she committed can be considered bratty..ppl throw the word around loosely..while scaring ppl with the spooky stuff is uncalled for and could get annoying, it's not a federal crime(it was the older children who told her about Mrs. Porter being a witch to begin with when she was only 5 years old and the woman does a good job playing the part, so of course she believed them..not like Mrs. Porter was ever told to stop scaring the children, at least not on-screen)
So, AMM saw Karen as her alter-ego and felt compelled to show her POV, well, it is her right..quite a number of people said she's a lot more likable/well-rounded in her own series, even when she's being bratty..and the same can be said about the members of the BSC who narrate their own books..plus if there are similarities between her and Kristy, even when Kristy was little, why should the BSC members write her off? As an adult, even I can relate to some of her angst, and I certainly was flawed at age 7 and don't like punishment more than she does.
The books where I would call her behavior bratty was #46,#49, and #80..for the record, sulking and pouting can be ignored much more easily than the temper tantrums involving kicking and screaming..can't say I fault the BSC for being put off by the latter where Jenny Prezzioso is concerned..since she does it when they're being nice to her..my issue is with the two-faced approach..like they should just correct her behavior in a firm and diplomatic manner. Even with the annoying traits of both characters, neither of them are akin to a child criminal (ala those wild children on Maury) so shouldn't be written as such unless the story is a parody.
|
|
janey
New To Stoneybrook
Posts: 3
|
Post by janey on May 31, 2020 9:54:26 GMT -5
^ I agree with the latter half of what you said. Jenny is much more a brat than Karen, and neither is all that bad. And sulking and pouting is not nearly as bad as a temper tantrum. That was one of the points of my post. I was actually defending Karen.
As far as the first half, yes, Ann M. Martin was entitled to write anything Scholastic would publish. But by seriously upping the Karen quotient, it exponentially increased the annoyance many fans felt at Karen's personality. I probably wouldn't have "hated" Karen growing up if I hadn't read the LS books.
I don't recall many times Karen actually faced the consequences of her negative behavior, but if she did, she certainly didn't learn her lesson. She'd repeat the same behavior in a later book.
|
|
