Elizabeth Thomas-Brewer

[aln1982]

I probably have a minority opinion here, but I’m like Kristy and Abby sometimes in saying what I feel I’ve never been a big fan of Elizabeth’s parenting and can’t understand why she gets so much praise for “holding it together” and being so wonderful after her husband left and before she married Watson. Agree that Patrick was a total jerk who abandoned his family and it must have been really hard for her. Also admit that I don’t know what I would have done and don’t know the struggles a single mother – or father – must face. Still, it seems to me – especially after reading Mind Your Own Business Kristy and Kristy’s Book – that Elizabeth dumped way too much on her young kids – Charlie especially. It really seems like it was Charlie holding thigns together. I realize they had to help out, but cooking dinner every night, taking care of David Michael like giving him a bath, cleaning the bathrooms and the house, etc. in addition to taking care of themselves and smaller chores seems like too much for kids that age. It doesn’t make sense to me when Mrs. Barrett gets so much criticism for being irresponsible and a bad mom (not saying that she is the best mother/housekeeper or anything but just making a comparison) who uses single parenthood for an excuse while Elizabeth is praised. Maybe Mrs. Barrett should have just had Buddy and Suzi clean the house for her ;D She even seemed to make fewer excuses for herself than Elizabeth did and recognized that she was not doing everything she could for her family where I felt like (and this might just be my perception right now) Elizabeth thought she deserved a pat on the back and almost pitied herself. As for Mrs. Barrett taking more care in her appearance than in her kids’, the appearance of the Thomas family wasn’t mentioned but I would bet that Elizabeth looked nice and put together going to work but the kids weren’t put together unless they did it themselves. One final point on this – where in the heck was Nannie all this time??? She certainly moved in fast enough AFTER Elizabeth married Watson and didn’t really need her.
As for Elizabeth’s parenting of Emily, she seemed to kind of dump her on Nannie and on the others. It seems to always be Nannie or Watson who is taking care of Emily. Makes me wonder if Watson was really the one who wanted another child and Elizabeth just didn’t want to say no.
I just don’t care for Elizabeth’s style of parenting overall and can’t really make myself like her as a mom. I don’t mind her as a stepmom, though, for some reason. I really like her in most of the LS books and think she is good to Karen and Andrew. I also really like their real mom. Wonder if she got rid of Watson or he got rid of her. Not sure why either would do this but that's another topic

[booboobrewer]

Hm, I definitely never saw Elizabeth as almost "pitying" herself. I prefer Elizabeth over Mrs. Barrett, but I don't hate Mrs. Barrett. Despite her flakiness and faults she had real concern for her kids. Elizabeth just seemed to be more demonstrative and better at showing it. If we're talking about pre-Watson and pre-Franklin, Elizabeth takes more of an active interest in her kids's lives by sitting and talking with each of them every night, whereas in Impossible Three, Buddy is driven to tears because his mother ignores his requests night after night to help him with his family tree until he starts to panic because it's getting close to the project due date. As for Mrs. Barrett looking super-model fantastic while the kids' hair was left uncombed, I'm guessing there was nothing like that with the Thomases because there wasn't a need to make an obvious issue of it. It's a point of backstory for the Barretts when Dawn sits for them--with the Thomases, it's just not that important.

I haven't read Mind Your Own Business, Kristy in a long time, but I remember Charlie talking about what he had to do after his father left (not the specifics though). But that aside it never seemed to me that Elizabeth dumped too much on them. The children were extremely close and wanted to work together to please their mother and keep up a stable, comfortable household. That's not to say the Barrett kids didn't want that, either, because they did want to please their mother as well. They just weren't sure how to go about it. I think Elizabeth instilled more of a responsible work ethic in her kids than Mrs. Barrett perhaps did. Her kids helped her out with a lot, thus making her seem calmer, more in charge, and generally less frazzled than Mrs. Barrett.

[dawnomite]

I always wonder where was Nannie pre-watson. It seems like that's when she would have been needed the most. Maybe she was still working then? I don't know it just seems weird that she moves in to help with Emily (at a time when an actual nanny would have been a distinct possibility) but I wonder why Elizabeth never thought of asking her to babysit after school or have the kids come to her house after school or something. My parents both worked and my sister and I always went to my Grandparents after school, even in high school when we didn't need babysitting anymore because it was fun and better than sitting in an empty house. It almost seems like Nanny came out of nowhere to help with Emily but really she was there all along. Maybe Elizabeth didn't want to ask her but Watson pushed her to when Emily came along? Or maybe she did watch the kids when they where little and Elizabeth wanted to give her a break? It just seems kind of weird to me.

[aln1982]

I didn’t really mean to make so many comparisons between Elizabeth and Mrs. Barrett and can see good and bad points in both of them. I agree that they both seem to love their children. I think what I was trying to say is that I’m not sure why there is such a huge difference in praise vs. criticism. But a lot of this might have to do with the perspective from which the information is presented in the books: we are reading how great Elizabeth was from Kristy and her friends, who like Elizabeth. Mrs. Barrett is presented from Dawn and friends’ perspective and as I said in the Mrs. Barrett thread, I think that Dawn might want to subconsciously magnify Mrs. Barrett’s faults. I’m also thinking of scenes from Sea City Here We Come from Buddy’s perspective where his mom comforts him and sits with him (a lot like the “quality time” that Elizabeth spent with her kids that I know a lot of people on here really like her for doing but that I am not as impressed by) and when he says “my mom is cool.” Anyway, I didn’t mean to make all of the comparisons.
I also reread my post and realized that I did say that Elizabeth pities herself but I don’t think this is exactly the right word. It’s just something that I sense in her personality in many of the BSC books that kind of rubs me the wrong way. Ever have a character who does that, even though you don’t know why? I think Elizabeth definitely does have her good points and could have been a much worse mom – after all, her kids seemed to end up good. I guess Charlie did a good job ;D – I’m making a bit of a joke here, just so I don’t come across as slamming Elizabeth because that was just a bit of my weird humor – hard to express on the computer) I was a bit harsh in my post, probably because Elizabeth really bugged me in Kristy’s Book, which I had just read. Also, I was feeling particularly hateful in general since I was having a really bad day on the level of “Karen’s Worst Day” (which I love Elizabeth in I think I was using this board to vent some major frustration.
Anyway, I’m about to reread Kristy and the Mother’s Day surprise so maybe I will have some different thoughts on Elizabeth after that. I know I do like her in almost all the LS books.

[booboobrewer]

I have similar questions and theories, dawnomite. I always chalked it up to some sort of combo of her still working in the days pre-Emily, Elizabeth wanting to give her a break and/or proving to herself that she could raise the kids on her own, and Watson and Elizabeth deciding together about asking her to move in.

I’m also thinking of scenes from Sea City Here We Come from Buddy’s perspective where his mom comforts him and sits with him (a lot like the “quality time” that Elizabeth spent with her kids that I know a lot of people on here really like her for doing but that I am not as impressed by)

That's fair that you're not impressed by it. I certainly don't base my like for her on just that example alone. I did also enjoy that scene between Mrs. Barrett and Buddy in SCHWC.

But a lot of this might have to do with the perspective from which the information is presented in the books: we are reading how great Elizabeth was from Kristy and her friends, who like Elizabeth. Mrs. Barrett is presented from Dawn and friends’ perspective

Yeah, perspective obviously has much to do with it.

[liss31d]

Hmm didn't Nannie live kinda far way from the Thomases back in the old days? I think in Kristy's Big Day, it said that she lived an hour away from Stoneybrook, hence it would have been difficult for her to babysit for the kids. Also, with regard to the reason why she didn't help out more often back then, maybe her husband was still alive then... and potentially the reason she moved in to help with Emily was that he had died recently and she was lonely on her own (kinda like Aunt Cecelia).

[inge]

That may be so, but I still think it was weird for Nannie to not help out more in the "old days" and then move in completely.
I always thought of Elizabeth as a really good mom. True, because she was praised by the BSC in that way, but I think they did that for a reason. I don't like Mrs Barret because she seems to put herself ahead of her kids from time to time (I'm not saying she does this intentionally, but still) but I never got the impression Elizabeth did this. She was struggling, yes, and therefore it's logical that the kids have to put in a little, even if in 'normal' situations they'd be too young to do that and the kids seemed to be happy to help out. I truly believe she did the best she could. I'm not saying Mrs. Barret doesn't, but... well, I don't know. Don't forget that while Kristy's dad was out of the picture completely, Mr. Barret still wanted to be involved with his kids (kidnapping, anyone?) so Mrs. Barret wasn't completely alone raising them, while Elizabeth was.

[aln1982]

I had the same questions about Nannie - who I really can't stand. In some books, it sounds like she lived close but in others, it sounded like she lived far away. Still, I think it's strange that she moved in AFTER Elizabeth and Watson were married. That is another thing that bugs me about Elizabeth's parenting is how Emily seems to be more Nannie's child than hers.
I read a few LS books this morning and liked Elizabeth in all of them. I always tend to. Anyone have a different perspective of characters in the LS books than of the same characters in the BSC books?

[inge]

I have that with Kristy. In the Little Sister books she's the fantastic, wonderful, brilliant can't-do-anything-wrong example of Karen. In the Babysitters-club she's just... Kristy. A good kid, but with flaws.

[dawnomite]

inge said:

I have that with Kristy. In the Little Sister books she's the fantastic, wonderful, brilliant can't-do-anything-wrong example of Karen. In the Babysitters-club she's just... Kristy. A good kid, but with flaws.

same here. I always think Kristy looks so pretty in the LS illustrations too.

[ktag]

I think most of the praise for Elizabeth comes from Kristy's Great Idea. Other than that, I don't see her getting an unbalanced amount of praise. She just becomes like all the other Stoneybrook parents after that. I agree that Kristy's book doesn't paint a particularly pretty picture of their early days. Not very responsible. Agree about Nannie as well.

[alula]

Is "Mind Your Own Business, Kristy!" the one where Charlie says he was writing out the checks to pay the bills and stuff? I remember being a little disturbed by that. It sounded like she might have been clinically depressed, too, (which with four kids and a deadbeat husband, I'm not unsympathetic to--but your ten-year-old should not be in charge of paying the mortgage). I don't know--I'm kind of prickly about adults oversharing with children, so I might be a little hypersensitive.

From a writing perspective, I tend to think a little bit of the stuff about the pre-Watson Thomas family (especially from Kristy's Book) comes from the wacky perception on ages--maybe some of that comes in more as the ghostwriters do more? I have no idea if any of them had any background in child development, whereas Ann at least did her BA in education, if I recall correctly. I think the ages often seem less accurate later in the series (except maybe the Perkins girls, but that's an exception because of the personal connection, I assume). Part of that is probably having to think of more and more things for the kids to do without them being able to age, but I wonder if some of it is maybe some of the ghostwriters just not having a sense of the differences between a four-year-old, six-year-old, and nine-year-old, for instance. I mean, there's no way a six-year-old, even a mature one, is responsible enough to be taking care of David Michael the way Kristy is described. She's not just playing with him or feeding him once in awhile, she's daily preparing bottles and changing diapers and I think even giving him baths (that gives me shivers just thinking about it--it takes such a little bit of water and time for a baby to drown!) Just think about any of the other six- or seven-year-olds in the series doing that. Karen? Buddy? Margo? Jackie?

And I believe that a ten-year-old, likewise, is way too young to be in charge of an eight-year-old and a six-year-old on a regular basis. Some ten-year-olds (not all) could handle being home by themselves after school, and maybe occasionally watching their younger siblings for short periods if something unexpected comes up, but I really don't think it's safe or reasonable to be doing regularly. I'm not sure it was intended as Ann envisioned her in "Kristy's Great Idea" though--she really did seem to be making a conscious effort not to put too much on the older kids there, by hiring sitters two days a week so they were able to do extracurriculars and stuff.

Although even when I was little, I thought the whole "OMG we have to get married in a week and move by the end of the month!" plot of "Kristy's Big Day" was pretty flaky coming from a late-thirties, mother of four, professionally accomplished, adult woman, especially since clearly it's not like either family is religious, or like Watson's mansion doesn't have enough freakin' bedrooms that if she felt it was really important to set an example for her children she couldn't have just slept in a guest room until they got the wedding organized or whatever. I get that it's driving the 14 kids plot point, and it is a fun book, but I always felt that to get there it is a little bit one of those "Idiot World" plots--where it really only works if everyone is kind of dumb and no one steps in with any of the solutions that are far more logical (and mundane) than whatever the characters end up doing.

From a character perpspective, sometimes I like to think Edie Thomas was the really cool one and then she got bit by the body-snatchers that make most of the parents of Stoneybrook so clueless they need their lives organized by thirteen-year-olds. And changed her name to Elizabeth.

[aln1982]

^ I don't remember her name being Edie??? What book was this in? I haven't read Kristy's Great Idea for a while, though.

[aln1982]

^ I don't remember her name being Edie??? What book was this in? I haven't read Kristy's Great Idea for a while, though.
Interesting points, alula, and I agree on a lot of them. As for Elizabeth wanting to marry Watson before moving in, she could have stayed in a guest room but I admit that I didn't think of this right away. I really liked it how they got married before moving in together at all (just so no one even got the wrong impression) and the example that this set (I know I'm in the minority with not really approving of living together before marriage - not that I'm criticizing anyone who does it and I know tons of people do it now. Just don't personally agree with it.)
As for little kids feeding babies, this made me think about my friend's situation with her three kids going to a sitter that had 2 other babies in addition to hers so her 5 year old had to feed one of them. I think I'd be calling the BSC

[lyricalangel]

Yeah. It was Kristy's Great Idea.